Former Saudi Intelligence Chief: "We Have Nothing to Apologize For"
Prince Turki bin Faisal (on June 9 in Berlin): "One should have equal sympathy for every innocent person who has suffered a violent attack, whether in Palestine or in Israel."
Foto: Marlena Waldthausen / DER SPIEGELWhen 79-year-old Prince Turki bin Faisal, wearing his black-and-gold bisht, the traditional robe worn by Saudi dignitaries, appears for his interview in a congress center at the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, Arab conference attendees step reverently to the side. Some ask for selfies. Turki is the honorary head of the German-Arab Gulf Dialogue on Security and Cooperation, which was hosted by the German-Arab Friendship Association in mid-June.
The high-ranking member of the Saudi royal family travels the world as an ambassador of his country’s political policies. Turki is quick to mention that he holds no official position, giving him the latitude, he insists, to speak freely. Still, Turki is a loyal proxy of the royal family’s interests.
He greets the two DER SPIEGEL journalists on the sidelines of the conference with air kisses.
DER SPIEGEL: Your Royal Highness, following the terrorist attack on October 7, in which almost 1,200 Israelis were murdered by Hamas, the Arab world showed almost no sympathy for the victims. Why is that?
Turki: Conversely, the Arab world laments the lack of sympathy in the West for the thousands of Palestinian victims.
"I would hate to favor one people who are suffering over another."
DER SPIEGEL: You are one of the few political leaders in the Arab world to have simultaneously condemned the attack by Hamas and the Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip. What is your personal reaction to the images of death and destruction that you have seen in Israel and Palestine on and since October 7?
Turki: The whole of humanity should be outraged by what is happening right now. Whether it is Jews, Palestinians or the Rohingya who are suffering at the hands of others, I sympathize with them all equally. I would hate to favor one people who are suffering over another.
Prince Turki bin Faisal during his interview with DER SPIEGEL reporters Özlem Topcu (left) and Susanne Koelbl in Berlin on June 9.
Foto:Marlena Waldthausen / DER SPIEGEL
Prince Turki bin Faisal is a member of the Saudi royal family. He is the son of former King Faisal, who was assassinated in 1975.
Born in Mecca in 1945, Turki studied in the United States and became head of Saudi Arabia's General Intelligence Presidency in 1977. After running the agency for 24 years, he surprisingly resigned - just 10 days before the al-Qaida attack on the U.S. on September 11, 2001.
Turki later represented his country as an ambassador in London and then in Washington. He is a co-founder of the King Faisal Foundation and head of the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh. Turki is married and the father of three daughters and three sons. His son Abdulaziz has been his country's minister of sports since 2020.
DER SPIEGEL: What were your initial thoughts when the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague announced that it was simultaneously applying for arrest warrants for both Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and for Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, both on suspicions of war crimes?
Turki: I was very happy that day! This decision confirms to me that the UN Security Council should pass a resolution excluding anyone who does not recognize the two-state solution from all negotiations on the issue of Palestine and Israel. This would take Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas out of the negotiations on the future of Palestine.
An Israeli woman mourning at the funeral of friends who were killed in the Hamas terror attack of October 7
Foto: Shir Torem / REUTERSDER SPIEGEL: As a former Saudi Arabian intelligence chief, you are familiar with security issues. Did you expect Hamas to carry out this murderous attack?
Turki: How could I expect anyone to inflict such violence on someone else? The imbalance in your question, however, is that it refers exclusively to Hamas. I also never thought it possible that the Israelis could inflict this outrageous oppression and aggression on the Palestinian people. We should remember that this discharge of violence on October 7 was the result of a long history of Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. An end to this occupation would prevent such an event from happening again.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in October 2023
Foto: Abir Sultan / APDER SPIEGEL: Do you see the attack on October 7 as an act of resistance?
Turki: What I am saying is that one should have equal sympathy for every innocent person who has suffered a violent attack, whether in Palestine or in Israel, whether on, before or after October 7.
"We are not negotiating directly with Israel."
DER SPIEGEL: Immediately before the Hamas attack, your country was on the path to normalizing its relations with Israel. This was also supposed to include a comprehensive military agreement with the United States to protect the kingdom. Is that still realistic in this tense situation?
Turki: You have forgotten the third component of these negotiations with Washington, which will determine the success or failure of the agreement: the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state that would represent the Palestinian people with all civic rights and human rights.
Palestinians in the destroyed Gaza Strip city of Khan Younis on June 11, 2024
Foto: Eyad Baba / AFPDER SPIEGEL: How are those talks actually going?
Turki: The Americans tell us that they want us to normalize our relations with Israel. Our answer is that this will only happen if there is a secure path to the establishment of a Palestinian state. We are also not negotiating directly with Israel. Saudi Arabia invited a Palestinian delegation before October 7 to talk directly to the Americans about what this Palestinian state should look like.
DER SPIEGEL: Do you think a two-state solution is still feasible after the Israeli trauma of October 7, after the deaths of thousands of civilians in Gaza, with 700,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank, some of whom are prepared to use violence, and a potentially reinvigorated Hamas?
Turki: If I didn't think it was possible, we wouldn't be calling for it. The United States, Germany, the whole world is calling for a two-state solution. Only Israel refuses to accept that there has to be a two-state solution.
German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock in Israel on April 17
Foto: Ilia Yefimovich / dpaDER SPIEGEL: There has been criticism in the West, but also in Arab societies, that Arab states are not doing enough for the Palestinians.
Turki: When Palestine became a British mandate after World War I, London began inviting Jews from all over the world to Palestine to establish so-called settlements. Well, I would call them colonies. The Palestinian people rebelled against the influx of these refugees, who were persecuted by Europeans, especially Germans. So the British government oppressed the Arab population. At the time, Saudi King Abdulaziz protested to the British government against its policies. To this day, all successive leaders of Saudi Arabia have provided financial, humanitarian and sometimes military support to the Palestinian people. We have nothing to apologize for here.
"It's not the U.S. that seems to be telling the Israelis what to do, but the other way around."
DER SPIEGEL: That is a very one-sided depiction. Jews lived in Palestine in past centuries as well. Most European Jews were fleeing from persecution, and millions of them were murdered in the Holocaust.
Turki: Yes, in Europe. Why don't they call them colonialists? They take land away from others, which is exactly what is happening in the West Bank these days.
DER SPIEGEL: Many supporters of Israel around the world are critical of the present-day settlers. In an earlier DER SPIEGEL interview, you said that the U.S. was the only power that the Israelis listened to. Is that still true?
Turki: I wish I could tell you, but I don't understand what's going on there myself. It's not the U.S. that seems to be telling the Israelis what to do, but the other way around.
Murdered opposition journalist Jamal Khashoggi
Foto: Mohammed al-Shaikh / AFPDER SPIEGEL: A common assumption is that Netanyahu is trying to hold out until his supporter Donald Trump is re-elected president in November.
Turki: I'm neither a psychiatrist nor a fortune teller. I can't tell you what motivation is driving Mr. Netanyahu or others. But there are very negative statements from Trump about Netanyahu. For example, that he betrayed him when he gave the order to eliminate the commander of the Iranian Al-Quds Brigades, General Soleimani, in Iraq and Netanyahu backed down at the last moment.
DER SPIEGEL: What would it mean for your country if Donald Trump were to return to the White House?
Turki: From President Franklin D. Roosevelt to President Joe Biden, my country has found a basis for cooperation with all American leaders. Sometimes we had very good relations, sometimes strong differences. During the election campaign, Mr. Biden said negative things about Saudi Arabia. But after he was elected, he changed his mind, and now, we work closely together. The same goes for Mr. Trump, whose first trip abroad as U.S. president took him to Saudi Arabia.
DER SPIEGEL: What about your country’s relations with the German government?
Turki: The same pattern. It was hostile to us, the Greens and the SPD wanted to prevent the sale of weapons to us before the election. But now, the Greens are in government and are authorizing these arms sales. The foreign minister herself announced it. We negotiate with everyone who represents the people of a country.
A Saudi Arabian woman in Mecca: "You women have worked your way out of an extremely misogynistic system."
Foto: Fayez Nureldine / AFPDER SPIEGEL: The German crisis with Saudi Arabia was a direct consequence of the murder of opposition journalist Jamal Khashoggi and the CIA's assessment that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was personally responsible for this bestial crime. Khashoggi was once a close associate of yours. How do you view this case today, seven years later?
Turki: Jamal Khashoggi was unjustly killed by an uncontrolled element in the Saudi government. Fortunately, all those involved in the murder were arrested, convicted and sent to prison. The king and the crown prince have ordered that funeral services be held in the two holy mosques of Mecca and Medina in memory of Jamal Khashoggi.
DER SPIEGEL: Are you not just twisting the facts?
Turki: Khashoggi's family has accepted the conviction of the murderers by the Saudi Arabian court and expressed their gratitude to the king and the crown prince.
DER SPIEGEL: One could also say: A couple of scapegoats are now behind bars and the main people responsible got off scot-free.
Turki: The perpetrators have confessed to their crime. We will never forget this tragic incident.
How Emancipated Is the Saudi Arabian Man?
DER SPIEGEL: The crown prince cultivates the image of a reformer and modernizer. Women are allowed to work, drive cars and travel unaccompanied by men. Will there soon be a political opening in which dissenters and members of the opposition have a voice?
Turki: Do you read Saudi newspapers? If not, I would advise you to do so, because you will find very lively debates there about the latest developments in our country, ranging from complete rejection to total support. At the annual National Dialogue, representatives from all of Saudi Arabia's provinces discuss topics such as women's rights, extremism, youth and economic development. There is enthusiastic support in the country for the crown prince and the government.
"I think that if Saudi Arabian men today complain about being oppressed and exploited by women, then they deserve this treatment."
DER SPIEGEL: It remains disturbing when a few tweets by activists critical of the system, such as the recent one by the young doctoral student Salma al-Shehab, lead to such disproportionately harsh sentences like 34 years in prison – a sentence handed down by a court.
Turki: Such news is spread by certain European or American magazines that want to emphasize negative views of Saudi Arabia.
DER SPIEGEL: These are real cases.
Turki: Our court system is independent and passes verdicts in accordance with the law. There is an appeals system with four levels of appeal, then the case goes to the Supreme Court. The fifth and final decision lies with the king.
DER SPIEGEL: There is at least no doubt that women are playing a more visible role in Saudi society. Many men have now begun complaining about the imposition of female superiors. How emancipated is the Saudi Arabian man today?
Turki: I think that if Saudi Arabian men today complain about being oppressed and exploited by women, then they deserve this treatment.
DER SPIEGEL: Are you outing yourself as a feminist?
Turki: You women have worked your way out of an extremely misogynistic system. Your mothers and grandmothers went through hell to fight for the right to education or, for example, the right to vote. And you deserve these rights!
DER SPIEGEL: Your honor, thank you very much for this interview.